9-Ball
Topic: BPPPA Tour Calendar & Membership

I hope that after this week it will be Imran Majid

i would say danny is right..i have played in 6 bpppa tournaments now and he has been to one,what does this tell u about the tour,he openly admits its bad value for money.this brings me to the point of how can u sell the tour to a sponsor if the best aint in it,mick hill should be in these events but he says its bad value for money,if the pay structure is correct,the best players in the uk will show up which means u have a good product to take to companys.lets be honest tiger woods is the main attraction in golf he has took it to a new level,people want to c the best,not someone who keeps going out on day two,.this is the same in all sport,including the bpppa

I agree with the sentiment that the tour and payouts should have the top players in mind but it's hard to do that in the current circumstances. You make comparisons with English pool but let's remember that game has massive participation in the UK, the events are very well supported and payouts remain OK. In contrast American Pool is not a big sport here so it remains very difficult to attract any kind of sponsor let alone a big one. What I'm saying is that the non-pro's, the mediocre players, the wannabees etc do matter a lot and have to be considered. You can't build the tour from the top down, you have to build it from bottom up. The more of US play the game and the more money YOU stand to make in the long run.

From the mid ‘80s for ten years the UK had a 9 Ball
Tour that mattered.
Doug Gordon’s Pro 9 Ball Tour was regarded as one of
the best in the world. Now, a decade later the 9 Ball
pool scene in England is worse off than it ever was.

If I recall correctly every event on Doug’s Tour (as
it seems to be called on this website) paid a minimum
guaranteed first prize of £1000 and they all paid down
to the last 32 places.


I recall watching one of their events on TV where
Oliver Ortmann won £3000 by beating Francisco
Bustamante and Ralf Souquet , Was it Worthing or
Portsmouth? Sam Leisure presented the cheques and
Tommy Donlon made the semi finals.

The Tour was not perfect and but it meant something!
Doug’s word was law but he was always fair and looked
at things from a player’s point of view. There were
always plenty of World Championship and World Masters
spots for players on that Tour both from the rankings
and extra qualifying places. I think that in 2000 or
2001 there were over a dozen UK players in the WPC.

Now you cannot qualify anywhere in England to play in
the WPC. We have been swallowed up by the Euro ideal
and are just another cog in the wheel - something
which not even two World Wars could achieve.

Feijen, Petroni, Clemmens and many other Europeans
were regular visitors and the UK was becoming the
beating heart of the game.

So what happened? Now we have the BPPPA which is run
by a seemingly nice guy Ted Bristow. He has added
Junior and Wheelchair events but what else has he
achieved? What has he lost for the UK players?

And what about Doug? What happened to him? Is there a
connection with Pro9 and the Pro 9 Tour? The players
on the Tour – Anthony Ginn, Kevin Hew, Andy
Richardson, Kevin Smith, Lee Tucker, Steve Knight, Ray
Allard, Steve Singh, Tery Hunt – have they stopped
playing? If so, then why?

Peach, Majid and a few other top Pro 9 Tour names are
still active but did they think the grass was greener
on the other side of the fence? Was it guys?

I am not a player, just an interested observer. But I
think that these players are only reaping what they
sowed and they would have been better sticking with
the Devil they knew.

Brilliant post from afar. And from some of the other top 8-ball players.
The simple truth is 9-ball and 8-ball on the the american tables has a small following compared to Snooker and English 8-ball. Get the number of players up, produce stars makes sense. However people take up sports because of stars - you want something to aim for or aspire to. The buzz when Ronnie O'sullivan was getting involved springs to mind. I agree a star gets sponsors -but the sport has to be able to afford stars. Its a chicken/egg situation.

I work in advertising and I love pool. I've also wondered alot about how we can promote this beautiful game. I honestly think the APN is the start of the answer. But there is more to it than that. I think Rileys is also vital to the growth of the sport. Exposure is everthing. I'm gonna have a think and stick some more views down.

But we should all try stick something in the 'suggestion box' rather than just moan.

Once again - a thought provoking post from afar. I do agree that a few top 9-ball players from Doug's tour did switch to the BPPPA for easy money. But then, so did a few snooker and English 8-ball players!!

I think we've just seen one of the best posts ever on these forums, courtesy of fromafar. Shame not too many picked up on it cos it could have led to an interesting thread. Surely with hindsight most players would agree that the state of the game in this country was far better under th Pro9 tour than at present.

Don't get me wrong, the BPPPA tour is good and run well but having now had a few years watching first the Pro9 tour and now the BPPPA, for me there is no comparison.

You never know what you have until its gone and worryingly we seemed to have lost an awful lot in this country. Most notably a meaningful tour and ranking list, world championship spots and many talented players. A lot of people were quick to attack Doug Gordon and get behind a new tour but in reality I'm sure every player would give their left arm to have the opportunities available to them now which Doug provided.

For anyone unfamiliar with the Pro9 tour, let me outline the conditions... entry was £35 per event, £1000 to winner, £50 for last 32, the top 16 were called the top 16 because they were seeded through to the 2nd day, the top 4 on the end of year rankings got a world spot, there were many more spots available for the worlds, masters, champion of champions, world 8 ball, and players included some of the best we've ever seen (Knight, Donlon, Ginn, Smith).

For everyone who has recently been asking what relevence the BPPPA rankings have, imagine being in a ranking list where the top 16 got seeded to the last 32 and the top 4 had world spots!! Proper stuff and it made it all worthwhile.

I just cant see how the game has progressed in the last 3 years. With the Pro9 tour went all the chances UK players had of getting into major events and this can only be harmful for our game. The main questions being asked of Doug towards the end of his tour were; where do all the membership fees go? Why are playing conditions not always up to scratch? Can payouts be increased? 3 years on, the exact same questions are being asked of the tour that took its place and yet offers less to the players.

I would love to hear the views of the players that this affected, that dont play the game anymore because of the changes, and people like Daryl an Imran who must consider themselves worse off on the current tour? It could make for an interesting discussion.

I've only really been playing seriously since the bpppa although I think I may have played on the old tour years ago but got battered by dazzler!

What stands out to me from the 2 previous posts are the 4 spots for the wpc.

"The BPPPA is the world recognised governing body for the American disciplines of pool in Great Britain.

The Association is a member of the World Confederation of Billiard Sports (WCBS) & the World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA) through our membership with the Continental Body, the European Pocket Billiard Federation (EPBF)." Quote from bpppa website.

How can an organisation with so many supposed world connections not even provide one spot for the worlds, when a bloke called doug was doin it years ago???

A very good point 412-414. It makes me wonder what the point is of having all these connections. The Pro9 tour didn't just have world spots for the top 4 on the rankings, there was also a spot for the winner of the Masters (a comp for the top 32 players on the rankings after the top 4), there was a UK qualifier (a comp for tour members only excluding top 4 and masters winner), and Doug also ran the international qualifiers before the worlds (open to all players worldwide, held in Bristol for a number of years and then Cardiff, a total of 10-12 spots).

For a number of years Doug Gordon and the Pro9 tour had more world championship spots than we could ever need! Now we do not have a single spot. That is my worry about the progression of the sport and opportunities available in this country.

wish i played on the old tour then.

Big Dave
Didn’t you have an association with the Pro 9 Ball Tour? Did you support it? What’s the story? I am sure many players would love to go back to the “Good Old Days.” Why did they end?
As others have pointed out – What good is a Ranking List without any meaningful incentive.at the end of it? You are playing in a vacuum.
Imran Majid, are you better off? Kevin Smith, Kevin Hew, where are you?
I did not know Doug Gordon well but I found him to be dedicated to his players, to getting them the best deal on a worldwide stage. It is a pity that they did not show the same kind of loyalty to him.
I understand player’s reluctance to fall out of favour with the present regime but at least acknowledge the man’s achievements.
We hear of qualifiers for this, qualifiers for that, qualifiers for qualifiers. Have we been reduced to a bit part on the global stage? The Pro 9 Ball Tour used to put the Great in Great Britain! Wherever Doug is now, I bet he is sitting with an ‘I told you so’ smile on his face.

On 2006-12-06 20:08 , trevor Wrote:

I think some of this is pure fantasy!

On Dougs tour I lost in the last 32 on numerous occasions and rarely received £50. It was subject to entries and sometimes was nothing!

Also these other comps you speak of?

I never heard of a "Masters" which excluded the top 4,
Maybe I have a short memory.

As for the World qualifiers "Open to players worldwide"
well these are always held in the country that is hosting the main event. (as in the Phillipines this year)

Having said all this, I am still grateful to have played on "Doug's Tour" and am sure that without the achievements of Doug Gordon, 9ball pool in the UK would not be as big as it is.

We all owe Doug a lot, but we can only go to events that are actually being run.

I only stopped going when they were no more.

If a tournament is worth entering, people will enter it, regardless of who is running it!


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On 2006-12-07 19:13 , fromafar Wrote:

The guy who by implication of your rose tinted spectacled observations is not doing a good job for UK 9 ball at the moment is currently in hospital, and probably with other things on his mind. Perhaps a little decorum and a shut mouth might be appropriate until the situation becomes a little better.

RT.

Shooter, you are quite right and I realise that although in the early days of the Pro9 tour from what I saw £50 was paid to the last 32, the figure reduced as entries did. Surely you remember the Masters though?!! I think you played in it! It was held at Mickey Flynns in Cambridge every year. And I know you played in the tour right up to when it ended, and so fair point about if a tournament is good enough people will enter it.

Read This, at the time of writing I was not aware of Ted's illness and in no way was I wanting to make the situation worse. I am interested in the thoughts of players who have been on the pool scene for years and seen the changes. I agree that perhaps the discussion should be left for another time.

I would like to comment on the content of this thread but it would be inappropriate at this time. Ted Bristow is a friend of mine and I am saddened to hear of the present state of his health. I wish him a full and speedy recovery and I will post my comments at a more timely moment.

Welcome aboard doug!

i cant agree more with doug!!!! some people are posting at a wrong time and i personally think its a disgrace!!! Get behind the man who is giving u a great tour and is unwell at this time and be happy u have a tour at all!!!

who are u fromafar??? if u have so many comments to make can u not give your real name?


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im 99% sure who u are fromafar but maybe u can tell me different!!!!

I post this on behalf of Doug...


"With respect to Ted Bristow , who hopefully is on his way to a full recovery, issues are arising which are giving cause for concern within the UK pool community.

As I read the debate going on at the moment, Prompted by the posts of Afar and Trevor (whoever they are) I think that I am qualified to add a different perspective to it.

The level of prize money on the UK 9 Ball scene has certainly plummeted. Basically players are only playing for their own money and various people are organising events for them free of charge or perhaps for some ‘hidden’ sponsorship.
This is spiralling downwards – less entries=less prize money!

When the UK Pro 9 Ball Tour started times were different. The enthusiasm both from myself and the players (not forgetting the club owners) was much greater.

At it’s peak the tour was running 24 events a year and all were well attended. I had spoken to Area Managers Peter Adams and Bob Tester of Rileys telling them that we were getting players on TV and it was putting cash in their tills – can I have some of it?
They gave me a deal you can only dream about. Each ranking event carried a sponsorship of £2700 – and there were 18 of them per year! It cost each club £150. Whenever it was a club’s turn to hold an event the other 17 clubs also weighed in with £150 each.

Add entry fees of £25 and you can see why there were some nice prize funds. Top event was Shepherds Bush which paid out over SIX GRAND. Rileys ploughed nearly £50,000 into the tour in one season. Why?

Because they were making a profit off the tour. One manager told me that they changed up £4000 to feed the gaming machines over a tour weekend. That was why we seeded the top sixteen to the final day and why I took Steve Knight’s suggestion that they had guaranteed prize money even if they lost in the last 32.

The only downside was that they would be penalised ranking points if they lost their first match. We never paid out less than £1000 to the winner. Sometimes it was £1200, once it was £1500 and even £3000 at Brighton Bowlplex.

The Rileys sponsorship went down to £1000 an event for about 18 months and when new (financially aware???) management took over it eventually stopped.

In all the years that I ran the tour only once was I asked about what happened to the membership money. If anyone had asked then I would have told them “that’s my business” but they knew that they were getting value for their money.

There were spots in other major events such as The World Masters and the World Championship plus various other events. So there was a greater incentive to perform well. Since 1999 Pro 9 Ball Tour players have filled 140 spots in the World Championship. Over half of these were from the tour and the rest came from the worldwide open qualifiers that we also ran for Matchroom.

I have to say that it was far more than we deserved from the performances of some of our players. But now how many do we have? None? We are back to where we started with our players having to travel abroad to get in the game’s premier event

I thank both Fromafar and Trevor (who both seem to have a clearer vision than most posters) for their posts in this thread. I am not happy with the state of the game in the UK but I am certainly not gloating over it. I just lost interest when we ceased to be the engine room of the game. I got tired of putting my own money back into players who could not see the wood for the trees."


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Chris @ Pro9

great post - I think over the last week or so the 9-ball scene as it stands in the the UK has been clearly discussed. From the APN to Pro tours we couldn't have got much more in-depth. Brilliant, we've heard from all sides but what's the verdict?

Sponsorship, growth, Atrract more fruit machine players to the game to help fund Riley's backing? I like the Divisions idea,(but isn't that called the top 16?) Maybe APN do Spots on the BPPPA, BPPPA do spots at the worlds? I don't know Bring on 2007!!

Merry Christmas all