9-Ball
Topic: Bpppa Manchester 10/11 Feb

Im not been funny, but have you seen the juniors that play on this tour break?.....they break as good if not better than most of the adult players......some real talent there!

And as someone said already.....to get 3 balls over the balk line doesn't take too much effort......

......all it would do is stop players from breaking gently!

As Fabio Petroni put it to me this weekend.... "everyones a champion all of a sudden" as he and many others dont agree with "tapped" balls.

I was chatting with Boyzi on the flight home and he came up with a real solution.......
.......tap the balls, but put the 9ball on the spot instead of the 1 ball.....im gonna try it when i go practicing today just to see how the reaction is.

An interesting discussion.

Doesn't this really depend on what we are actually talking about here and why? Are we talking about tapped balls or a soft break, or both?

9 ball is so dependent on the rack that this will always be a problem. Tapped tables generally give a good, if not perfect rack, and so you have to be somewhat of a dimwhit not to make the wing ball from your break. This being the case tapped tables facilitate soft breaks, thereby giving players with weaker (or rather less controlled) breaks a better chance of controlling the cue ball, as they simply don't have to hit it as hard. You also get a slightly more predictable layout from a softer break I think.

Tapped tables also have advantages (if you see them as such) in giving each player a uniform rack that isn't dependent on racking skill (or skulldugerry!). So the only recourse to racking skill is strategy or ordering the balls (against the rules by the way - but widely practised nevertheless).

So why are we wanting things changed?

Is it the fact that wing balls are too easy to make?

Is it because players shouldn't be allowed to soft break and have no disadvanage against players who have a well developed (controlled and powerful) break? -

Incidentally does a better breaker have much of an advantage on tapped tables if everybody is required to break hard or is this less than on non-tapped tables?

Is it because tapped balls make racking too easy and negate the advantage that players who know how to rack on poor tables have?

Personally I think the power (and controlled) break is an integral part of 9 ball. It's great to watch, and players who work to develop a good break (and you have to work at it) should be rewarded. However, I also prefer tapped tables as this takes a lot of the aggro out of the game and makes it more dependent on skill at the table than skill at racking. Those who rack well could still soft break on non-tapped tables (would that be considered a problem?). Moving the rack up is one possible solution - but won't this result in knowledgable players changing breaks to try to make the one in the side - which doesn't go with a hard break?

I don't think there is an easy answer here and there will always be problems with 9 ball and racking, but what are we trying to stop and why? If we answer this honestly, then maybe we could move towards a suitable rule change. After all, if we simply want to see everyone blasting or at least shooting hardish at the rack lets just bring in the 3 ball EPBF rule.

On 2007-02-27 12:07 , nicknameless Wrote:did you not read daryls post?

On 2007-02-27 12:17 , indiana Wrote:

Urm yes - which part am I implied to have missed?

I dont agree about "more skill at the table" nearly every player is capable of running racks if the balls are nicely laid out with a nice easy start on the 1ball. Ok, it is a skill to some degree, but the real skill in 9ball is having a "full" game....meaning that Skill in SAFETY, KICKING, BANKING etc etc come into it.....and in the last 3 bppppa events i have played in, in nearly all the matches i played my opponents rarely played a safety because there was no call to do so!.......this is wrong!......and its the silly soft break thats the reason behind this.

I know for a fact that certain players who are winning matches now, that would hardly win a match if the balls were not tapped!

The question as you said is "is this a bad thing?"

Well i think it is because the player that plays the best has a much less winning percentage chance with the balls tapped and no rule to stop soft breaking etc etc.

I know its 8ball, but in the GRAND MASTERS coming up, i know of a few players that have actually dropped out of that event because they dont want pay the entry fee bacause they dont think they have a chance......and the reason is because at 8ball even when the balls are tapped, YOU NEED A STRONG BREAK!

This for me says it all.

I know its sometimes good to have new faces winning events etc etc, but it shouldn't be at the cost of certain players actually playing better pool but still losing because they refuse to do a SOFT break because its not how the game should be played!

Even the player that won the last event (Karl Boyes) said to me on the plane from Prague, that he really disagrees with the soft break rubbish....and that i tarnishes his win slightly because of it.

Now, as a tournament director, i know that tapping balls is a big thing in making the matches run more smoothly....it speeds up the bit inbetween racks, and thats a good thing for sure. So what can we do to stop this soft break?....well as already mentioned, on the EPBF they have a rule where 3 balls must go past the balk line/or say if you pocket 1 ball you need to get 2 balls past the line etc etc. this work s to some extent, but you are still guaranteed a ball off the break....so i think the way forward is to do the 3 balls past the balk line rule, but ADD tapping the rack a FULL ball higher. problem solved because its still possible to make the wing ball but you would need to make a real good contact on the 1ball to do so. If you make the 1ball in the side this takes the "guaranteed position" out of the equasion because the other balls are less predictable than the 1 ball.

I hope you all understand where im coming from here.


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Hi Daryl,

Thanks for your posts.

Isn't this an argument for stopping the guaranteed wing ball, rather than an argument against the soft break per se, if you are advocating moving the rack up a ball i.e. as per your post a way to make 9 ball a bit more tactical?

As far as my limited understanding goes it's not the speed of the break that is guaranteeing the wing ball but the position of the rack in combination with the perfect rack that tapped tables enable. So moving the rack up might require a better (harder) break to make a ball elsewhere thereby removing the soft break as an effective option.

So it's not really about the spirit of the game (i.e. blockbusting breaks being the way it should be) rather than the nature of it (tactical vs rack running)?

I just think we should be clear about the basis of, and potential consequences, of any proposed changes.

Nice to hear other people's thoughts.

Cheers,

Jonathan.

P.S. I agree the game is totally different to how it used to be. I'm relatively new to pool in general but I've watched a few of the old accustats vids of tournies with a break box, opponent racking etc. and the nature of the game is very different. You'll be sounding Earlesque in a bit!!

Why not make it real interesting and play back pocket 9ball?


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Why not make it really, really interesting and play 10 Ball???

No girlie breaks in that sport as me, Surgeon and Boyzi found out in the players lounge last week.

I was going suggest we played back pocket tonight Si, but hopefully another day.


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whats back pocket 9 ball??

is 10 ball the same as 9 ball with the obvious difference of having a 10th ball??

Rules for BACK POCKET 9-BALL

Except when clearly contradicted by these additional rules, the General Rules of Pocket Billiards apply. In addition the BCA rules and regulations of 9-Ball will apply except where specifically contradicted below.

PLAYERS
Two individuals, or two teams.

BALLS USED
Object balls numbered 1-9, plus the cue ball.

THE RACK
A diamond shaped rack is used. The 1-ball is at the head of the diamond, on the foot spot. The long axis of the diamond is along the table's long string. The 9-ball is at the center of the rack and the 5-ball is at the tail of the rack. The other balls can be placed randomly.

OBJECT OF THE GAME
To legally sink the 9-ball in your corner pocket at the head end of table.

DETERMINING OPENING BREAKER
Players will lag for the break. (For the remainder of the match, the player winning the previous game will break).

DETERMINING PLAYER'S POCKET
Non-opening breaker (chip holder) will place a chip next to their pocket before the break.

After each game the chip holder will move their chip to the other corner pocket at the head of the table.

After the break, the chip may not be moved (i.e. if players forget to switch pockets, their perspective pocket will remain the same as the previous game ).

SHOT DEFINITION
Ball and pocket.

BAD SHOT DEFINITION
When a player misses a called shot, pockets a ball on a safety, or commits a foul.

SAFETY DEFINITION
A player will strike the lowest numbered ball on the table and, after contact; at least one ball must hit a rail (with no balls pocketed).

BALL IN HAND DEFINITION
The referee will declare "ball in hand" after a foul is committed and give the ball to the upcoming player (only then may player touch the cue ball)

RULES OF PLAY

1. In order to win, the player must legally pocket the 9-ball in their pocket (at any time, any way, so long as it is called).
2. For a legal Shot, after striking the lowest numbered ball on the table, the player must pocket the called ball in the called pocket.
3. For a legal Safety, after striking the lowest numbered ball on the table, at least one ball must hit a rail (with no balls pocketed).
4. Before each shot, players must declare a Shot (i.e. ball and pocket) or a Safety.
5. If a player misses the called shot or pockets a ball on a called safety, the upcoming player has the option of letting the offending player shoot again. (Note: this is not considered a foul, and only applies to non-breaking shots ).
6. If the nine ball is illegally pocketed, it will be spotted on the foot spot before the next shot is played.
7. Fouls:
     a. Cue Ball Scratch: The upcoming player will have ball in hand.
     b. Object Balls or Cue Ball coming to rest anywhere except the table surface or pocket (for an object ball): The upcoming player will have ball in hand. The offending object balls (if any) will be considered pocketed (except the nine ball, which is spotted on the foot spot.
     c. Incidental Contact: The offending player will lose their turn, upcoming player has the option of requesting the referee to return ball(s) to location before incidental contact. After referee finishes placement of the balls, the upcoming player has ball in hand.
     d. First hitting a numbered ball, which is not the lowest on the table: The upcoming player will have ball in hand.
     e. No balls contacting a rail after lowest numbered ball is hit: The upcoming player will have ball in hand
     f. Masse Foul: the upcoming player will have ball in hand.
     g. Picking up any ball, removing any ball from a pocket, or otherwise touching any ball (unless considered "Ball In Hand" by referee): The upcoming player will have ball in hand.
     h. Referee Fouls: Any foul assigned by the referee not covered above.
8. After 3 consecutive fouls, the referee will declare the game over (non-offending player is credited with the win).
9. Fouling on the 9 ball is not considered a loss unless the 3 consecutive fouls rule applies.
10. Pocketing the nine ball in opponent’s pocket: Player loses game.
11. If the nine ball is moved during a bad shot, the opposing player has the option of requesting the referee to replace the 9-ball to the where it was before the bad shot stroke.

OPENING BREAK

1. For a legal break, the player must hit the one ball first and get at least 4 balls to a rail or pocket.
2. If any ball(s) are pocketed, the player will continue their turn (Note: If the 9-ball is pocketed, it will be spotted on the foot spot before the player will continue).
3. Pushes will be allowed as per the BCA 9-ball regulations.

REFEREE DUTIES
The referee will be responsible for racking, removing balls from the pocket, and giving the cue ball to a player. They will also arrange to have score kept and he will call all fouls.


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looks like those rules eliminate the "flukes" from the game, that would ruin my chances of winning lol

It would target some of the finer points of pool that dazzler talked about earlier such as multiple rail banks and kick shots and safety


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and presumably 10 ball rules are the same as 9 ball except they are racked in a triangle with the 10 in the middle, whoever pots the 10 wins??

surely the simple short term option is.....
1=tapped rack(so no dodgy carrying ons)
2=rack the balls a full ball higher(3past line)
3=call ball and pocket.

I agree with Si. 10 ball is a much better game solely because of the break.

Would a break box be another solution for 9 ball?

How about you have to score 4 points to continue your visit after the break? i.e. 1 ball potted and 3 balls past the centre line or 2 balls potted and 2 balls past the centre line etc? Even this isn't too difficult when the rules allow the cue ball to count if it comes back behind the centre line.

On 2007-02-27 15:30 , SkyBlueJim Wrote:

Yes pal, thats it.

The Pearl has been campaigning for called shots in 9 ball for years. Why this isn't the case at the top level (or any level!) is beyond me.

On 2007-02-27 16:11 , thediamond Wrote:

Diamondo. I said it you years ago. 9 Ball should be a call-shot game. If not they should switch to 10 ball.

When i mentioned the game should be changed to 10ball on this very forum 18 months ago, i was shot down in flames.

Jason, maybe we should change your name to phoenix and you can rise from them!!!!!!!




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Agree with machine on this one (not often I say that Michael is it!!! ), with a small change.

Adopt US Open style rack position - i.e. 9ball where the 1 usually is. Break from the box, tapped balls, call shot, alternate break, 3 passed the kitchen line, race to 10. Better player should win MOST of the time! :o)-

Also, 10 ball is loads better - I had some great games both Boyzone, loads more to do in terms of spotting the finishes, playing safe, moving balls etc - i.e. all the things that the Dazzler pointed out. Class game.

Come on folks, sign up to the 10 ball tour, we could have an awesome series of events on our hands, just need a bit more interest....