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7 Golden Breaks in a row!!! |
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Riggers
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Joined: 30-Mar-2006
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From: Barnsley (centre of the universe)
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Posted: 2006-12-19 09:09
On 2006-12-18 23:35 , TheWizard Wrote:!!! QUOTE !!! I haven't got it either and to be perfectly honest, I don't want it either because every player SHOULD be racking the balls as tight as you possibly can and NOT setting them in any numerical order, other than by the rules, honestly and fairly 
Willie That's a good point Willie about not setting the balls in any particular order but that's something that also needs to be sorted out IMO. Until recently I very niaively thought that UK players (with our snooker culture) would not cheat by *deliberately* racking the balls in a particular order rather than randomly as required by the rules. Ok, so I now know that not everyone embraces the spirit of the rule but I think half the problem is the rule itself. It's very difficult to judge what is random and what is not so I'd really like to see this rule changed too because until it is there will be blatent cheating going on and very little you can do about it apart from 'asking nicely for the order to be changed'.
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Riggers
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Posted: 2006-12-19 09:12
Here's one suggestion....
Have a picture of various different rack set ups on small cards at the tournament desk and have someone randomly draw a card. Then that's the order everyone must use when racking the balls, so you would hand out a small card with every score sheet so people can see how they must rack. You could redraw the racking order at various points in the tournament e.g. for last 32, then again for final etc.
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Riggers
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Posted: 2006-12-19 09:15
This could actually generate some real interesting discussion between players during the tournament about how the balls are splitting. Also some of the more skillful players will start to adjust their break to take best advantage of the set up. Could be really interesting if you ask me. [ This message was edited by: Riggers on 2006-12-19 09:15 ]
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cusack_147
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Joined: 17-Mar-2006
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From: Southport
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Posted: 2006-12-19 11:18
There are ways to rack the balls so that they roughly finish next to each other (e.g. 1 next to the 2, 8 next to the 9 etc.). I sometimes rack them this way to give this a chance of happening. However if you see an opponent rack the balls in the exact same way for 2 or 3 racks you are perfectly entitled to ask them to be racked differently. I am aware of some culprits but i will not mention any names.
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Riggers
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Posted: 2006-12-19 11:43
That's the whole problem though... I don't want to have to be asking for this and what if they rack them differently and have still purposely manipulated the order in their favour. This whole thing is a nonsense. If the order of the rack can have an advantage to either player then it should not be left up to players to try and set them up randomly. IMO the order should be specfified and then there can be no arguments.
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Shooter
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Posted: 2006-12-20 00:12
IMO the rules say random. To me this means "my random" As long as the 1 is at the front and the 9 in the middle then the rest can be exactly as I want them! This is not cheating at all. This is playing within the rules. Everyone is allowed to do the same, "IE" fair. Unless the rules stipulate an exact format as in "English Pool" Then I will continue to do it "My way" No-one can ask me to change the rack as it is not in the rules. "That would be cheating".(or sharking) JMO. P.S. obviously I'm not talking about gaps in the balls. THAT is cheating! -----------------  [ This message was edited by: Shooter on 2006-12-20 00:14 ]
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TheWizard
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Posted: 2006-12-20 00:57
On 2006-12-20 00:12 , Shooter Wrote:!!! QUOTE !!! IMO the rules say random.
To me this means "my random"
As long as the 1 is at the front and the 9 in the middle then the rest can be exactly as I want them!
This is not cheating at all.
This is playing within the rules.
Everyone is allowed to do the same, "IE" fair.
Unless the rules stipulate an exact format as in "English Pool"
Then I will continue to do it "My way"
No-one can ask me to change the rack as it is not in the rules.
"That would be cheating".(or sharking)
JMO.
P.S. obviously I'm not talking about gaps in the balls.
THAT is cheating!
No, that is where I'm going to have to correct alot of players on this and I know this rule only too well from playing the game from I was a kid and KEEP this rule in mind for every rack, in ever match you ever play The "Random" racking rule DOES NOT entitle the racker to choose the positioning of the other balls in anyway, this "Random" part means exactly what it says, meaning the the other 7 balls in the rack MUST be rack COMPLETELY at random and NOT at the racker's choosing Anyone who has said to you otherwise, doesn't understand the ruling or haven't ben given the proper definition of this ruling , this is another reason why at touranemtns, the fashion of racking your own balls in the next rack, was started Willie
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Shooter
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Posted: 2006-12-20 02:29
Please go on Willie? You haven't convinced me yet! That's just your opinion? I'm all ears!!!!!! Btw Merry Xmas. -----------------
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TheWizard
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Posted: 2006-12-20 02:46
ok Jonny lol , thanks buddy Merry Xmas to you also If you watch the Mosconi Cup, US Open, ALL the big tournaments that are televised , the referres NEVER EVER rack the balls in any particular order, other than the 1ball on the spot, 9ball in the middle, but the other 7balls, are meant to be racked completely at random, which means, that you can't actually rack them a certain way, either in order or in a numerical pattern, as this is racking them unfairly and dare I say, on the brink of cheating. If you go the the rules section of the site and check out the rules of 9ball, and other games, it will or should state that that the balls other than those that have designated spots in the rack, are to be racked completely in a random manner, in other words just set them in the rack and place 'em to where they should be and as frozen as you can get 'em , in fact I'll save you guys the extra effort of going there 5.2 RACKING THE BALLS
The object balls are racked in a diamond shape, with the 1-ball at the top of the diamond and on the foot spot, the 9-ball in the center of the diamond, and the other balls in random order, racked as tightly as possible. The game begins with cue ball in hand behind the head string.I have been playing 9ball and Straight Pool from before the rest of the UK, even knew that, 'The Colour Of Money' was a movie and over the years, I made a point of it to learn all the proper rules in the game Willie [ This message was edited by: TheWizard on 2006-12-20 03:08 ]
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Riggers
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Posted: 2006-12-20 08:31
'Random means My Random'... Haha.... Come on Shooter even you can't believe you can get away with that! Random means Random! Not Chosen! This is why the rule doesn't work and should be changed IMO. Just tell players how to rack all 9 balls and change it at various times throughout the tournament.
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Riggers
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Posted: 2006-12-20 10:28
For a laugh I just knocked up a quick Excel macro that sets up a rack of 9 balls at random on each press of a button. I had to press the button 47 times to get the 7 & 8 ball immediately below the 1 ball. I think there must be something wrong with my code because that's just too far away from real life. In my experience those balls end up there about 5 times out of 6 not 1 out of 47!  [ This message was edited by: Riggers on 2006-12-20 10:29 ]
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Shooter
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Posted: 2006-12-20 11:21
Willie. If you have been around THAT long then you should know that in the US about 5 years ago they ran televised pro tournaments where they WERE racking in a set way. I can get you the racking order if you want! Maybe from now on I will close my eyes and just throw them in random. Only trouble is, this is difficult when the balls are tapped and we are not using a rack. Seems to me we should have a set way to rack and then we can all practice it and then it would be fair to all. -----------------
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Riggers
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Posted: 2006-12-20 11:27
Shooter - Some tournaments rack in a set way because the random racking rule can be varied at the tournament directors discretion. The TD on the BPPPA does not do this so it's supposed to be random. I agree wth you though and we should have a set racking order. Like I said earlier, this could generate some real interest as people try to adjust their breaks accordingly so it introduces a real skill element to the break off and more importantly it eliminates deliberate rule breaking (and where I come from that's known as cheating!).
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TheSurgeon
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Joined: 13-Mar-2006
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From: Leeds
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Posted: 2006-12-20 12:35
on one riggers!
what difference does it make putting the 78 at the top, as apposed to say 65 or 38? If you're saying split, then learn some new breaks??!!
Should someone put 78 at the top every time, but the other balls are placed at 'random', wouldn't this still be construed as 'random', as per the rule?
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Riggers
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Posted: 2006-12-20 12:58
I'm not sure what difference it makes cos I'm not a top player but having seen it done I guess it must make a difference or it wouldn't have been done.
In answer to your final question, of course that's not construed as random. The rule states the positioning of the one and the nine not the one, seven, eight and nine. 7 of the balls must be placed at random not 5!
The way the rule is at the moment anyone could deliberately break it (i.e. cheat) and there's no way you can prove it because, although statistically very unlikely, it's possible for the balls to land in exactly the same place every time when racked randomly. So you can never prove cheating and the players know this so those that want to exploit the loophole go ahead knowing they can never actually be caught for cheating. But cheating it is!
The rule has to be changed.
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read_this
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Joined: 16-May-2006
Posts: 109
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Posted: 2006-12-20 13:30
I'm with riggers on this. There is no leeway in the interpretation of random. A set order really would improve things and put a stop to racking strategy.
Some players random means 'whilst I can get away with it I will routinely put you at a disadvantage.'
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TheWizard
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Posted: 2006-12-20 14:58
Well, here's a Q for you, in American 8Ball, do you follow what the rules state when racking, or do you have them in a set order also?... I'll explain on your replies and riggers is right on his first reply that "Random" does actually mean randon and not to the racker's choosing. At some tournaments like you and riggers have said, there may be a racking order that maybe the 2 or 5, whatever be put to the back of the rack, but this is few and far between, the Mosconi cup had the 2 ball being always put to the back on the rack a few years ago, As reguards the US tournaments that were televised using a set racking style, is no suprise at all No matter what though, I think that matches should be referreed at every tournament, if not by a referree, then by a another player, who is neutral to the result of that particular match and that way, the balls will therefore have to be racked fairly The problem with racking the balls in any set order, is it will be at a disadvantage to the breaker and so, the other 7 balls are supposed to be racked by the means of just putting all the balls in the rack, with the 1 & 9 in the right places, and place the rack Willie
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Riggers
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Posted: 2006-12-20 15:14
Why will it be at a disadvantage to the breaker for the balls to be in a set order? The set order could be chosen at Random at the start of the tournament / round as per my earlier suggestion. Or in the case of an alternate break format it would not matter if the order had been deliberately set disadvantageously for the breaker. [ This message was edited by: Riggers on 2006-12-20 15:16 ]
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Riggers
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Posted: 2006-12-20 15:20
Just out of interest can anyone explain the easiest and hardest ways to set the ball up in 9 ball i.e. which placements should give the easiest / hardest runouts? Let's assume the table is tapped in and it's a medium / soft break bringing a couple balls past the centre line. [ This message was edited by: Riggers on 2006-12-20 15:29 ]
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Shooter
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Posted: 2006-12-20 20:38
Riggers!!! I spent countless hours learning how MY Random "lol" balls should be racked, I may tell you in private but I'm not letting Willie know! Hehe! My main point is that everyone can do it their way! Learn it like you would learn sidespin etc! So it has to be fair. But I still think a set way would be better. Putting the word "Random" in the rules is nothing short of laughable. Like I said before maybe I should close my eyes and juggle a bit! -----------------
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