9-Ball
Topic: APN-Leagues 9-ball Leagues

They listened 412-414...

http://www.americanpool-network.co.uk/default.asp?p=hrh

Get real APN. 5 rack starts, lets just turn this into a coin tossing league instead. Good players win because they are good players, turning this into a "everyone has a chance to win league" is rubbish. This is a game of skill, therefor there will always be some people who will never win. I'm not saying no handicaps but i am saying that your handicap system is far too friendly to the poorer players, why increase the 3 rack start from last year.

In a 5 rack start you must win the match 9-3. This is 9ball, we all know that average players shoot at the 9 for fun and that 9 balls do go in off the break, so we could have to win matches 9-1.

It seems to me that APN had a decision to make. Do we have a reasonable turnout with a reasonable handicap system, or do we make this a mickey mouse cup and get as many entries as we can so the business looks good. Well APN, i look forward to watching the 2 players in your national grand final that can't even hold a cue, great advert for british pool, well done.

Finally, i know the old chestnuts of "this is an amateur league" and "why should the pros take all our money" are more than likely to come up again so let me answer you in advance. I am an amateur too, i work 60+ hours a week and average about 4-5 hours sleep a night so i can practice this game in the hope that maybe one day i won't need to work as much, or at all. Then when something with potential like this comes along which could give players the exposure they need and a few quid at the same time, the players who do have the ability and who should be doing well in events like these are punished for being good. As has been discussed on this site too many times before, being a tour player does not make you a pro. Last year you were automatically handicapped if you were on the bpppa, but even some players on the bpppa would probably never qualify for the sunday nevermind win an event, they just play because they love the game and want to play among the best in the land, and respect to them. 99.99999999% of players in this country are amateurs, the APN should be creating a pathway for amateurs with potential to move further into the game, not creating farcicle leagues like this which take up all the tables in the land which means we can't even practice!!!

Please sort this mess out.

I think the idea of the APN is to get as many people as possible interested in and playing 9 ball. This is the only way this game will grow and obtain better sponsorship.

I run a handicap competion myself and I get the moaned at by the top players for exactly the same reasons as posted above. What I say to them is that without the lesser players we won't have a league.

Surely the better players should welcome the challenge of winning against the odds. It should make them even better players and when they do win they will receive the financial rewards they are seeking.

P.S. When did this game become solely about money? Before finding this game I played for 12 seasons in a snooker league in which there was no prize money at all. People played for personal pride and the chance to be the local champion.

412-414 - if you are so unhappy with the format then dont play.

I think that the format is good & encourages big numbers to get involved, which at the end of the day is what Amercian pool needs in the UK. The players who arent so good enjoy putting themselves up against the better players, and are more motivated because they actually have a chance of winning a few racks & even matches.

The good players who are bpppa regulars etc also welcome the APN leagues because it allows them to have regular competitive practice for a fraction of the cost of hiring a table anyhow.

I agree with the last 2 posts and it's exactly that view I adopted when I set up my weekly competition. The top players all moaned but now they are still winning (despite it being against the odds) they have stopped moaning. Also the turn out remains very good (around 20 runners) for a weekly competition in a town like Barnsley with no previous history of playing american cue sports. This is because the newbie's keep coming because they are being treated fairly and often when they do lose to a top player it is by a very narrow margin. The point of handicapping is to level the playing field and top players will just have to accept that, like the beginners, they will lose some matches.

Don't think this is about the money pool-ace, its about playing on the fair level that everyone wants.

As you will see from my last post, i am happy to give a start to a lesser player, but 5 racks in a race to 9 is far too much. The biggest spoon on the planet can win a few racks of 9ball because of how the game works, we all know that.

My point is simply this, if good players are handicapped to make it fair, no issue, but its gone beyond fair a swung in favour of the other guy.

I am speaking from experience. Last year in a race to 9 i gave a 3 rack start to someone who only had to pot 4 balls. This was one of the hardest games i have ever played against one of the worst players i have ever played. At 8-8 i played an awesome safety, and in true 9 ball fashion the guy just got down and hit as hard as he could without looking. He fluked a ball and left the next 3 hanging over the bags. I played the perfect game and still couldn't beat a guy who in normal circumstances i would beat with a brush. Is this fair?

I know the 4 balls handicap has been scrapped but come on, a 5 rack start in a race to 9 is going a bit to far.

Anyway, i just noticed that your handicap will be determined by your first 4 games. Commiserations to anyone that gets the easy games in their league first, why don't you try to scrape thru 9-7?

412-414

All that I have read from you is negative, not once have you offered a solution. Handicapping is an issue that will never be fully resolved as not everyone will ever be happy. We have taken players advice and changed the handicap system as in prinicipal the last system looked great but in practice caused too many headaches.

You would only have to give a 5 rack start to the very weakest players, there have been players that have played APN-Leagues (under the old system as well) that have failed to win a match all season.

It is our intention to give these players the best opportunity to win as everyone has put in the same amount of money. It should be a challenge for the top players to come to an APN-Leagues 9-ball league and try and win from the hardest handicap - it really tests the top players and if they want to improve then that test is required. Top players should not expect to walk into their local club and rob the money everytime otherwise the game will never grow in this country.

"I am speaking from experience. Last year in a race to 9 i gave a 3 rack start to someone who only had to pot 4 balls. This was one of the hardest games i have ever played against one of the worst players i have ever played. At 8-8 i played an awesome safety, and in true 9 ball fashion the guy just got down and hit as hard as he could without looking. He fluked a ball and left the next 3 hanging over the bags. I played the perfect game and still couldn't beat a guy who in normal circumstances i would beat with a brush. Is this fair?" Yes because flukes happen, that is 9-ball.

I don't mind players having there comments about what we are trying to provide - however, please try and offer solutions to problems rather than just trying to rip systems to shreds.

Well said Teach!

412-414 says 5 racks is too much but I disagree. In a race to 9 for a very good player to play a complete novice and give 5 racks start is very fair. Sure you could get some bad rolls and he could get some good ones - he might just beat you but you might just beat him. That's the whole ***** point of having a handicap!

It can only be good for your own game if you having to concentrate harder when giving out a big start.

Its all good that the APN are doing these leagues and we should all be supporting them as it better for us that we have something to compete in rather than just practicing on your own, i am looking forward to playing in my local town's league.

The_Teach : keep up the good work!!!

Point 1. The reason why my feedback is so negative is because i don't have any positives from last time whether you like it or not. If i did i would have said.

Point 2. " It is our intention to give these players the best opportunity to win as everyone has put in the same amount of money". Isn't the entry fee equal in all comps?

Point 3. "We have taken players advice and changed the handicap system as in prinicipal the last system looked great but in practice caused too many headaches". Don't kid yourself that the other system looked great, i knew it was stupid within 15 seconds of seeing it. I wonder how many other people out there thought it looked great. As for taking players advise, well done. Don't get me wrong, the fact that you have reacted to last year is great and is appreciated, i just hope you've got it right this time, i guess we'll find that out.

Point 4. It is not my intention to rob everyones entry money. It is my intention to play in a fair league. Last year it wasn't fair, fact.

Point 5. Yes flukes do happen, of course they do. My point was that when the guy you're playing only needs to pot 4 balls a fluke is many more times valuble to him, and more costly to you. Now that you have scrapped that rule we don't need to worry about flukes. I was simply giving an example of how unfair it was last year. You must agree because you've scrapped it!

Riggers- I have seen you play and know what standard you play at. If you had of played in my league last year i think you would have been just as peed as me. And you don't need to tell me the point of having a handicap, i think i understand that but thanks anyway. As i have now said more times than i can remember, i have no problem giving a start if it makes the game level. From my experience last year, 5 racks against most players is too much. And yes i might still win, or i might not, but we are all capable of winning 9-0 or losing 9-0 so i don't think that is the whole point of a handicap.

crashnburn- I would like to think that we all concentrate hard on any shot, at any time of a race, against any player, i know i do. I don't need a handicap to help my concentration. Anyone with a tiny ambition in pool or any sport would be the same i'm sure. A game is never won until its won.

On your second point, i couldn't agree more. Yes it is good that APN are doing these leagues, i thought that last year and i think the same now. But only with honest player feedback can we find a format that works for all.

APN- Had you taken my conversation more seriously when we spoke in person last year i wouldn't have had to say what i'm saying here but you didn't. Good luck for the new leagues and i really do hope its successful. You have obviously put lots of effort into the organisation and coordination of a competition of this size and i salute you for that.

I've been biting my lips but I need to add my 2 dimes worth on this subject.
I love the game of pool, I could quite honestly play pool 12 hours a day and not get bored. Playing pool is not just a competitive sport but also a catalyst for you to go socialise, meet new friends and network.
When I was in the States, I use to play in an amateur league called the APA. Never have I met people with such an interest and dedication to the sport of pool. We are NOT talking about youngsters who run multiple racks, or seasoned road players, but we are talking about old retired folks, middle age peolpe with high disposable incomes etc. These people can't pot more than three balls in a row but they will be there week after week turning up for their league matches, having a blast whether they win or lose. They too have handicap systems in place, off course you will get the odd ringer but the majority of the time the handicaps are fair.

Now I believe the APN league is something similar to the APA, it's not something for your Peaches, Majids, Hundals of this world but what it offers you is a structured format where you can play competitive pool for minimal cost and have fun with your mates.
It creates communities, for example, I play in the St Albans APN league, check out the APN forums, see for yourself the banter we have created over the last few months.

With regards to the handicaps, its fine, once you have build up a database of players and played in several seasons the handicaps will sort itself out. Of course, I have given 5 rack starts to people who only need to pot 4 balls but I tell you what, I try my darn hardest. If I play to my potential, I will win, and if I take it for granted that I'm playing a weak player then I will lose. Luck, flukes etc will even itself out over the course of the season.

412-114, I've been reading all your posts and I've never come across such a negative person, clearly you are too dim to understand the concept and purpose The APN Leagues.

Thanks Pete and Andy for doing a top job, I think the majority of people know what you guys are trying to achieve and dont let the odd bad egg get you down.

Sam

Thanks for your personal attack sam_betfair, obviously i am too dim. This is a forum where the pool world share their opinions not call each other names, i stopped doing that at school. Maybe if everyone else had the balls to speak the truth on here things would be different.

I think its only fair to the APN that i keep any other opinions to myself until we see how the new leagues work out.

sorry not meant to be a personal attack...............dim was too harsh a word, should have used Blinkered

A couple of questions:

(1) how are equivalent leagues handicapped elsewhere (e.g. the states) and if it is possible to replicate formats from elsewhere that seem to have had success (satisfied customers) why not do so if that is not what is currently proposed by the APN?

(2) Are there alternatives that retain the rack start advantage but do not mean that weaker players only have to win 4 or 5 racks? For example, the rack start handicap could be split either side of zero so that with a 5 rack start one player starts on -2 and has to win 11 racks whilst the other starts on +3 and has to win 6.

Regards,

RT

i like the idea of the second point rt

412 118 118 I feel your pain man. I too was an APN combat veteran. Did you experience the glory of winning a APN league? Or are you the one who won 3 leagues and had his handicap slowly raised? Then when he decided, heaven forbid it – SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT WIN!!! He quit midway through the season? His love of the game overtaken by sheer greed and ego?

That’s wasn’t you then was it? If so, you’re lucky then or maybe unlucky, getting such a high handicap. I once rule the roost at my club and won the league and Knockout – but then I was chained down with the handicaps. I despaired at my tormentors treatment. ‘What’s this’ I thought, ‘giving others a chance and making it harder for me to win?’ That’s just subhuman I thought to myself. Letting people who weren’t fit to clean my cue have the chance to beat me…. Like you 412 118 118 it made me sick! And exactly like you I had a 8-8 against some no-hoper and yet for reasons beyond my comprehension I LOST!!!

You lost to a fluke not even an Expertfluke, but the point was - you could and should of beaten him and you’ll remember that match. Now it’s burned on to your soul and you want revenge. He made you look a fool and you’ll never forget it. Strangely I never was concerned about playing the rubbish players on a big handicap. More worrying is playing the good players on a underrated handicap. The truth is, if you were better, you wouldn’t care what handicap they tied you down with. And if you were dedicated, you would realise that over time you would end up with a handicap that you deserve and so would everyone else. The ideal is everyone tries to improve their handicap – ever heard of golf?

I came bottom of the league although there was only six and I broke my leg 2/3’s of the way through. But I know next time I’ll be ready and I’ll win it, rather than moan about it. Unlike some whinging spoilt child like some people we know. I mention no numbers.

Boring. Have another read through this thread slowly and you might find a few answers to some of your inaccurate comments.

read_this

2 very valid points - I have looked into the APA system for 9-ball and it is very difficult plus can't use a trade marked system.

I like the idea of placing handicapseither side of zero and will seriously look into this.

Cheers

Sam's post is spot on. The APN is designed to get players of all levels involved & is in essence an amateur league. If you play to a high standard, and you concentrate & treat each match as if you would a BPPPA match, you will probably win anyway.
412-414 - you're the one who is boring. 99.9999999% of people support the APN whole-heartedly & clearly understand what it is trying to achieve. Increased numbers & increased exposure for American pool & an enjoyable night out for those who arent blessed with great cue sport skills.

Do you have to run a APN league out of a rileys?