Non-Pool
Topic: Rule compliance vs Integrity

I'd like to share with you a very interesting read I had this afternoon from someone's blog. The contents really struck home with me, especially with my involvement as a player and organiser of pool competitions. The blog by the way is nothing to do with pool. Bear with me and I'll tell you why the relevance to our game hit me but first here's an extract from the blog:

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(edit - blog author would prefer not to have edited version but full version not appropriate for here)
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This conundrum about rule compliance, conscience and principles really struck a chord with me. In our sport, and probably all others too, I can see 3 different types of players out there. They don't fit perfectly within the 3 types of ethical behaviour alluded to above but there are similarities. The 3 types I see in sport are:
1. Win at all costs even if it means cheating if you can get away with it.
2. Do whatever you can get away with within the rules (Steare's type 1).
3. Do the right thing (Steare's type 3).

In my experience most people in our sport, especially the pros, tend to fall into type 2. Many that do say they would like to be a 'type 3' but they don't because, unless everyone did it, they would be at a disadvantage. Obviously by thinking like that they are not ever likely to become a type 3 because they are not showing the integrity, kindness and courage which guides this principle. So the reason this blog has really hit home is because it now gives me the big question... Do I have the courage to be a type 3?

Type 3 roooooooooools!

I always have problems trying to think about stuff this big because you can only generalise and I worry about the exceptions.

If you play it "type three" be aware that some people will think you're nuts, and no matter how hard you try to be type three, you will make mistakes and appear the opposite sometimes, so you'd have to be happy to know in your heart that your intentions were pure three!!!

Yeh, I feel like I've been brought up as a type 3 and proud of it but more recently my desire to move my game to a higher level so I can compete with the better players has made me question myself and wonder if I'm drifting towards type 2, in fact I'm sure I have done this! This is all the more reason for this blog to have had an impact on me. I now know what type I want to be even if it means losing!

I still believe type two will get you a reputation for cheating. I would like to believe most people had the integrity to call fouls on themselves. Unfortunately, we know this isn't always the case.

For all the newbies (and the seasoned pros), integrity is the key. Don't make the mistake of picking up a reputation. It will stick to you like glue for the rest of your playing career. That may not bother you now but I bet it will in a few years. For all you thick skinned people that just don't care, I don't believe you should play on the Pro Tour....thats how strongly I feel.

There were a few incidents this weekend that I will not comment on (partly because I wasn't there, partly because I don't have the full stories from both sides). Suffice to say, I would advise those people to change their behaviour asap. Winning is important (it pays the bills) but reputation and integrity is much more important. Please see the error of your ways and make a change.

I'm a 3, unless the guy I'm playing is a 1 or 2 then I'm a 2, but never a 1.

I agree, integrity is more important than anything, if you can't win fair and square you shouldn't be playing - I always have and always will call a foul on myself, even if my opponent was looking the other way.

I have zero respect for anybody who doesn't use this ethos.

That's my two-peneth anyway


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Andy Warden, GB9 - Authorised Pro9 forum advertiser/sponsor √

Cueman, but not calling a foul on yourself is fair and square as it's up to the opponent to see it.

You're right though, even if I was playing someone in the class of Drago, I'd still call a foul on myself (with the only exception of Strickland).

personally if i know i have fouled i cant carry on and have call the foul

its a mad pyscological thing but if i know ive fouled but play on my game goes to pot so to speak

Let's just get this straight... although I said I think I've drifted towards 2 at times I'm not suggesting I would ever continue after fouling without calling the foul on myself.

Also this thread is probably a good time to mention there was an unfortunate incident in a match involving Daryl and Kevin this weekend, which was no fault of either player but it was a tricky one to resolve. That's because (and I really don't want to go into the detail because it will get boring) if the rules were followed strictly to the letter one player would have been disadvantaged quite badly through no (or very very little) fault of their own. Both players recognised this and thought out a good compromise that made a lot more sense and made them both feel they had acted 'like a type 3' so congratulations to both these players for the way this was handled.

there was a bank link machine in derry city that paid out twice the amount you looked for a few months ago.
i never seen as large a queue of people that wanted to use that particular machine before..seems someone put £20 notes where the £10 notes should have went......well it took 4 armoured police landrovers full of personell in riot gear to stop anyone else from using that machine...
and i happen to know that the money wasnt paid back

Anybody here know anyone who works for one of these portable cash machine companies?

hahahahaha!!!!! same happened to me in derry..... although i gave it back........ to the barman!!!!!!

I'll be honest, when I was a lot younger and didn't understand the meaning of being a sportsman and wanting to win at all costs I used to "cheat" at sports if I was losing.

However, since I have grown up and played sports I have played with integrity at all costs and called fouls when no one else has seen. I would like to think I am now a 3, and very rarely if all lapse into a 2. Which shows given my results on the Tour.

In life though I think it is very difficult not to be a 1 or 2.

Take the MPs who have been "allegedly" claiming expenses wrongly. These are the people who are supposed to be running our country and if they don't act with integrity then it's not a great example for the rest of us.

The Laws and Regulations in this country are a joke at times and many people bend or cheat them. I'd love to meet a person who has lived there life a 3.

As a small example I used to claim additional expenses for mileage when I worked for a large company.

But because they didn't check every expense they never found out. Mind you the fact I am an accountant gives you the answer to whether I live my life with integrity.

This is a very interesting debate and I actually experienced two incidents this weekend which are related to this. I was playing in the Danish 9 Ball Championships and met a good friend of mine in the second round. I had to play a shot down the cushion where there was only a couple of centimetres between the white and the object ball. Cueing down into the white I miscued but still potted the ball. My friend and I then looked at eachother knowing there was a chance that my ferrel had touched the white, which would be a foul. He would not call the foul on me as he was not 100% sure and neither was I. In this situation, I decided to call a foul on myself because the likelihood of it being a foul was bigger than it not being. I must admit that the fact that my opponent was a good friend influenced my decision, as I would not want to win the match and have 'that shot' discussed post match. I would like to believe that I would react in the same way against someone i did not like - but I think it would depend on the opponents character - when in Rome and all that! I would always call a foul if I knew 100% that it was a foul, but when there is doubt, it becomes tricky!

The second incident was in the losers final to qualify for the last 16. My friend was 7-3 up to 9 and his opponent was at the table. He was cueing close to the 8 ball as he potted the 3. He then called a foul on himself saying he thought he had feathered the 8 ball on the way past. My friend said that he hadn't seen it even though he was looking at the shot. His opponent insisted it was a foul and gave my friend ball in hand. I must admit that I have the a great deal of respect for him, as he was the only one in the club who had seen the foul and was even given the oppotunity to continue but still called the foul - a true 3. That is how we all should be, but until everyone converts to type 3, type 2 will be very common.

Alan

nice post totally agree!

but american style pool too many players other way!

There are still a lot of good guys around though, Dyno.

Check this out for sportsmanship.....

Over at SBE in Philadelphia, Tony Robles playing Mike Davis. Double hill (and the match had lasted a good 2 and half hours), Robles to break. Robles makes the 9 on the snap, the whole crowd errupted with applause. Tony (without a blink), reached into the pocket and re-spotted the 9. The whole crowd gasped and even Dennis Hatch stopped playing his match to ask Tony if he was mad. The crowd gave him a huge round of applause that didn't stop for a good minute.

Tony won the match in the end. He was mobbed afterwards. I shook his hand also. The ultimate sportsman? Or just crazy? Tony is a gentleman and one of the nicest pool players you will ever meet.

I remember giving a 9 ball back in a match because it went straight into the corner without touching another ball. I re-racked it and went on to loose the match, and i got some abuse about it, i kept being told that i should of took it.
Two posts in one day !!! i'm shatterd now.... lol

...against Steve Higton. I remember the match mate.

u still in the us diamond????